Topic: Getting started: 2014 (Read 25339 times)

Arbalest · « **on:** March 28, 2014, 10:29:23 PM »

Hello, new member here, and I wanted to get some help with SomEx.

I have been messing around with SomEx, mainly with the map editor, and it seems that I run into a few issues when I try to run the map or do project preview.

It would say that various files are missing like Kage.cp or 113.mdl are missing or can't be detected. Is there a way to fix this?

The updater seems to be a bit odd whenever I run it as well (I would have to replace the .dll file manually whenever it gets an update,) saying that something is interrupting it even though I don't have anything messing around with that file in the background.

For some technical info, I am using Windows 7 64 bit. This might make things difficult.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2014, 03:23:47 PM »

Quote from: Arbalest on March 28, 2014, 10:29:23 PM

Hello, new member here, and I wanted to get some help with Som-EX.

I have been messing around with Som-EX, mainly with the map editor, and it seems that I run into a few issues when I try to run the map or do project preview.

It would say that various files are missing like Kage.cp or 113.mdl are missing or can't be detected. Is there a way to fix this?

The updater seems to be a bit odd whenever I run it as well (I would have to replace the .dll file manually whenever it gets an update,) saying that something is interrupting it even though I don't have anything messing around with that file in the background.

For some technical info, I am using Windows 7 64 bit. This might make things difficult.

First of all it's SomEx, or simply SOM.

The alerts for Kage.cp and 113.mdl are normal. This tells you your project is missing those files. SOM tries to read those files but doesn't provide them. Your install may be out of date. I think I added a kage.cp file, but maybe not 113.mdl. That's likely to be a special effects model of some kind.

It should work to just make a 0 sized file of that name in your project folders to suppress the message box. There is an extension to suppress the box but it shouldn't be used by authors (its for programmers)

I don't have a test machine for 64-bit, but it shouldn't matter. Everything should run under the WOW 32-bit subsystem.

As for the updater. The main problem with it is there's no way to manually run it at this time. If you open the CSV files in the tool folder and save them so that they appear to have been changed, that will trigger the updater. Normally the updater runs after you update your files.

The other problem with the updater is people don't read the text and believe that it keeps popping up, but really each time it's updating a different file.

Please make sure you've updated everything. The release just yesterday was very important. Like the blog says it fixes bugs that made things unusable going back more than a few months since there hasn't been anyone independently testing things in all of that time, and my usage patterns are not exactly typical.

Anyone else using SOM Alpha is a big help to SOM. It demonstrates a real show of social responsibility. Or at least that someone out there cares about SOM.

EDITED: Also. Another thing about the updater is the files it updates are not part of the Subversion file tree. The reason the updater even exists is because it is impractical for these files to be versioned the same way the other files are, because they are large binary files that are ever changing. So the moral here is the versions of these files that are in the TOOL folder are quite old, and only exist for bootstrapping purposes.

Another thing to keep in mind is I almost never install SOM from scratch from the files here. I just don't have time to. So I rely on feedback. The same goes for the source code, I don't know if it will actually compile. It should, but I've never tried. I won't find out until someone tries to do that independently because I just don't have the time. Or rather I can't rationalize subtracting the time that would take from the time required to develop SOM.

Arbalest · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2014, 04:36:57 PM »

The installer still gives me grief when It asks me for a file update, mainly with unzipping and replacing SomEX.dll. I have to replace it manually, so I wonder if there is something running in the background that prevents this?

I installed it through the SVN, so I think I was following the necessary steps, I'll have to try again perhaps.

I see you saw my other post, so: I want to start a new project, BUT! whenever I start it, it seems to direct to the original sword of moonlight toolset and data (C:\Sword of Moonlight\) and not the EX tools and dataset (C:\Sword of Moonlight EX\)

So I wonder, should I uninstall Sword of Moonlight and SomEX, and reinstall EX via SVN again?

EDIT: Uninstalling both and just installing EX seemed to have helped a bit in regards to IMAGES.INI.

I'm going to mess around with this more.

EDIT2: The Kage issue is fixed now, now I have to deal with the missing files. Where can you get those files anyways? I don't remember them in the original files.

And for the question of the moment: Is there a windowed mode for map testing?

Holey Moley · « **Reply #3 on:** March 29, 2014, 06:45:22 PM »

Quote from: Arbalest on March 29, 2014, 04:36:57 PM

The installer still gives me grief when It asks me for a file update, mainly with unzipping and replacing SomEX.dll. I have to replace it manually, so I wonder if there is something running in the background that prevents this?

The only thing that should prevent the update from the get go is if SOM is already running. Or possibly antivirus software. You can use the Task Manager and go to the Processes tab to see if there is anything that looks like SOM in there and kill it. These days a process being stuck in the background like that is very unlikely though. With antivirus software you should just whitelist SOM_EX.exe or just use the default security stuff that comes with Windows.

Also if you go to the Systray/notification area there is an icon for the SOM_EX program that can be used to Exit everything cleanly from the right-click menu. Windows 7 and maybe Vista too hide these icons by default; a real nuisance if you ask me, since its very easy to hide your own icons, but I don't know if I will go to lengths to prevent the hiding or not. If even possible. If so the Start.bat file would do that.

~~If you can post a screenshot or use Spy++ to capture the text of the error window that will help.~~ I may have to do a full install from scratch myself and get back to you on this. It's possible that the bootstrapping is not cutting it. Also if you cancel any of the first updates or they don't work then that can be a real problem, because the updater itself may need to be updated as a first step.

Strikeout: I see you explained the problem was in the unzipping/installing step.

I've been considering doing a trial install anyway. If you go to csv.swordofmoonlight.net you can find all the latest versions of each DLL file. That should let you get to work at least.

Quote

I installed it through the SVN, so I think I was following the necessary steps, I'll have to try again perhaps.

I see you saw my other post, so: I want to start a new project, BUT! whenever I start it, it seems to direct to the original sword of moonlight toolset and data (C:\Sword of Moonlight\) and not the EX tools and dataset (C:\Sword of Moonlight EX\)

Did you run the Setup.bat and Start.bat files? To use Sword of Moonlight/Ex you need to launch through SOM_EX.exe. I think you must be or you wouldn't have seen the updater. There are two kinds of updates, there is the active SVN update that you do, and the updater (Somversion.dll) that downloads the DLL files when it detects that they are older than the ones listed in the CSV files in the TOOL folder.

Quote

So I wonder, should I uninstall Sword of Moonlight and SomEX, and reinstall EX via SVN again?

EDIT: Uninstalling both and just installing EX seemed to have helped a bit in regards to IMAGES.INI.

The release before last made it easier to start a new project with SOM_MAIN by automatically moving a lot of default configuration files into the new project folder, including IMAGES.INI. That file I don't like that it's in the project's top folder, but it's a throwback to years ago that hasn't been worked on since (edited: there is probably an extension for moving it elsewhere, and for standalone games it goes in an out of the way folder by default)

Quote

I'm going to mess around with this more.

The way install works in my imagination is a person comes to the site and reads the pages or finds the README/English.txt file first, and so uses a Subversion client to Checkout everything. Then I assume they will see the Setup.bat file, which should also be part of the documentation, and click on it. I assume people still click on Setup files reflexively but you never know.

Then you would think that the Start.bat file starts things, but it actually sets up the Start menu. Then you use the Swordofmoonlight.net folder in the Start menu to run Sword of Moonlight from there on out.

Since the release before last the only hitch is you need to add a language pack to the TEXT folder if you don't want Japanese. And you need to do that before you make a new project (assuming you don't do that in Japanese) to get the English default configuration.

Of course there can always be a bug in the mix. I won't find out until I do a fresh install. I may do that today, but it may be Monday before I get to it.

Quote

EDIT2: The Kage issue is fixed now, now I have to deal with the missing files. Where can you get those files anyways? I don't remember them in the original files.

It's because they are not in the original files that the message appears. I can't really search for 113.mdl in the site's database because it doesn't exist so the results will show up empty. I doubt it belongs to a PRF file anyway. Most likely it is part of the Sfx.dat file. So this won't likely get fixed until there is an alternative to the Sfx.dat file system (because PRF files need to be used for "magic" like everything else.)

I think I will just add a 0 sized 113.mdl file to the data/sfx/model folder. But I worry that could break the magic spell because I don't know how this works. I would be safer if I knew what used that spell. And that's hard to tell with the sfx system. If it's one of the player character spells it could be easier to figure out. If so it would be one of the image only spells.

In fact I worry that I may have already broken some spells if I tried this before. I know the Haze spell (purple fog) crashes SOM_PRM if you preview it. It's probably something worth investigating (there's always just so many somethings)

Quote

And for the question of the moment: Is there a windowed mode for map testing?

The recommended default configuration files (the same ones that are copied when making a new project) should run games inside a window. When you test a map you just launch the game really. So whatever your project's game settings are is what you'll get.

PS: At some point I do intend to prepare an installer, that will just do the SVN stuff automatically. It won't be the recommended method, but it will be an available option. That will come about sometime between now and Beta, which is just a way to say probably not anytime soon.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #4 on:** March 29, 2014, 06:54:50 PM »

EDITED: By the way. I would just backup your C:\Sword of Moonlight folder and install to there. Or wherever you want your SOM install to be. You don't need the old folder since now you can manage your projects in a sane way, which means not putting anything in your install DATA folder ever. Besides anything in there will be clobbered by Updates.

If you've collected custom artwork that you intend to use you should place it in a custom workshop folder. You can have as many of these as you like. You definitely want to use the PRF files here for anything that comes with SOM. If you have doctored models and texture files you should put them in a separate folder so that they override the ones in the install folder. If the PRF file names have been changed from the ones that come with SOM you'll probably want to delete the PROF folders so that only the models and textures are overridden so no new/duplicate profiles get added to your project (if the PRF files actually have value added changes you should just identify that on an individual basis and put them back with the original file names.)

These are best practices. Basically files in the install folder are public files from online authorities. Whereas files you manage as part of your project are your private files. You don't want to mix the two up (this is all controlled with the variables in the SOM project file. For instance data files use the DATA variable)

BTW if you haven't collected custom or doctored artwork you should know that there are a lot of blemishes in the files on SOM's discs and the artwork on this site hasn't been doctored in any way. That's not a point of policy, I just haven't gotten around to cleaning up the artwork as part of the ongoing preparation process.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2014, 07:16:13 PM »

^Oh BTW. I just noticed you explained that the updater problem is in the unzipping/installing step. I will look into that specifically this afternoon I think (so no need to post a screenshot or anything)

Finding a bug is always cause for celebration. Not demoralization.

Arbalest · « **Reply #6 on:** March 29, 2014, 08:35:42 PM »

Roger that.

Despite the error messages, it seems to work fine actually. I'll have to ask about the other features as I go along.

Supposedly there was an extension that would allow you to scale up certain objects?

Thank you for the help so far!

EDIT:

Quote from: Holy Diver on March 29, 2014, 08:35:42 PM

Did you run the Setup.bat and Start.bat files? To use Sword of Moonlight/Ex you need to launch through SOM_EX.exe. I think you must be or you wouldn't have seen the updater. There are two kinds of updates, there is the active SVN update that you do, and the updater (Somversion.dll) that downloads the DLL files when it detects that they are older than the ones listed in the CSV files in the TOOL folder.

That I did do, but I guess it must have had an issue when I installed the normal SoM AFTER the SVN one.

At least it is out of the way.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #7 on:** March 29, 2014, 09:55:34 PM »

Quote from: Arbalest on March 29, 2014, 08:35:42 PM

Despite the error messages, it seems to work fine actually. I'll have to ask about the other features as I go along.

If there are error messages there is something to it. If the problem was in the download part I wouldn't be all that surprised, because I had to experiment with putting the process to sleep to get the Microsoft download APIs to work reliably, which means they must be fundamentally broken, and that they shouldn't be relied upon. But the unzipping and copying over step should work without a hitch unless something is wrong, it's also possible that the error message is triggered when it should not be.

Quote

Supposedly there was an extension that would allow you to scale up certain objects?

I don't understand. You can do that already both in SOM_PRM and again in SOM_MAP. But there are limits I think which probably ought to be removed. I've been working on this for four years or so, but the truth is I only just broke ground on the tools late last year. Up to then all that had been done was to make them to work reliably but without any changes.

Quote

That I did do, but I guess it must have had an issue when I installed the normal SoM AFTER the SVN one.

When you download the files here it is as if you are installing SOM. There is never a reason to install SOM any other way unless you were just curious to see how From Software left it because you can't believe the rumors of how bad it was.

At any rate, if you do that you need to run Setup.bat again. It places a key in the Windows Registry that indicates to SOM where to find its installation files. You can supply an alternative install directory to SOM_EX.exe via its commandline/shortcut arguments, if for some reason you need more than one installation.

Since SomEx has no competitors and likely never will, it is Sword of Moonlight. To be a competitor you'd have to be an independent project that thinks there is some reason to patch over SOM's bugs in a different way even though it's already been done, which would be preposterous. That project would be laughed off the face of the planet, it couldn't possibly come into being, so the distinction is pointless.

If you need to talk about SOM with its original bugs and otherwise unprofessional qualities all intact I recommend saying Som2k or Sword of Moonlight 2000.

PS: To change the default installation folder you can copy Setup.bat into another folder and run it from there. You can also edit the Software/FROMSOFTWARE section of the registry yourself. I could be wrong but I think Setup.bat just adds that key to the registry.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #8 on:** March 29, 2014, 10:14:17 PM »

BTW: The only thing you really need to know is if you make custom PRT files, map pieces that is, you can use any name for the files, that is you are not limited to names 0000.prt through 1023.prt, and you are not limited to 1024 pieces per project in that way either, although you are still limited to 1024 per map...

But most importantly the name of the icon file is very important, because the system that makes it possible to setup maps in a sane way without corrupting the MAP files expects the icon name to be a permanent unique ID.

See http://en.swordofmoonlight.org/wiki/SomEx#Breaking_changes for more on this and other major changes.

EDITED: Also I recommend you not mess with the default speed and turning settings in the Sys.dat file. There's almost no legitimate reason to change these for any game. I'd write them down before changing them so you can put them back.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #9 on:** March 29, 2014, 10:36:49 PM »

FYI: I am experiencing the same problem. It will be interesting to see what is happening...

The library isn't loaded into the process. I think probably the file is locked by the system. I will look into it after the weekend. But I write to say that everything is not okay. The file isn't actually copied into place. So you will need to perform the manual copy operation as described on the second step I think.

Whatever is the case this is a new development. I can't think of anything really, except maybe the APIs that query the version of the existing file are not relinquishing it, or not being utilized correctly. I do remember making some changes around that not long ago. I almost never use this system myself because I "build" the files so there no reason for me to ever download them.

At any rate, good find. Only good things come of people using SOM. Testers are what SOM needs right now more than anything else. If anyone pretends to be interested in SOM and is not helping with testing, they are not people to be trusted.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2014, 01:15:38 AM »

Here (http://csv.swordofmoonlight.net/Somversion.dll/1.0.1.6.zip) is a build with a fix for the updater.

You can open/save the SomEx.csv file to see the last message for fun. It has some flavor to it.

I'm not going to officially add this to the files here until after the weekend. It adds an icon too, which is supposed to be like SOM_MAIN's for now, except SOM_MAIN's is blurred. I'm going to try to make a point to look into that.

The bug was pretty shocking. Basically the wrong variable was being used for the file being updated when written over. The variable was just the filename part for textual output when it should've been the full path to the file...

The reason it went undetected for so long is the "current directory" just happened to be the TOOL folder. But that changed a little while back. Hence the bug.

Arbalest · « **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2014, 05:07:03 AM »

Glad to know I was able to find something that you could fix!

In regards to the ledges bit, I think that was an idea you had when Rathmor had EX implemented, and you had the idea that the player could climb up objects like tables?

I could have misread back then.

I'll try to find anymore bugs that I come across and document.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2014, 04:21:56 PM »

Quote from: Arbalest on March 30, 2014, 05:07:03 AM

In regards to the ledges bit, I think that was an idea you had when Rathmor had EX implemented, and you had the idea that the player could climb up objects like tables?

Oh, I could not figure out what you were referring to here. Now I realize when you said "scale objects" you meant to climb them, and not to change their size or animate their size. Anyway that's a relief...

Also I read "supposedly" as if you'd said "suppose" as if you were requesting something (since you just kind of blurted that out.)

The default config file I setup just a month or so back has:

player_character_fence = 0.3 1.3 6.75 7.05

The 6.75 bit is actually wrong, and needs to be fixed, but shouldn't matter. I think I was thinking in feet instead of meters, but I may have just been setting it arbitrarily high. All that matters is the difference between the last two, since that is jumping height unless I am mistaken...

The 0.3 bit means you'll have to scale most of SOM's platforms with the Action button since they are usually 0.5 or higher.

PS: I had to entertain my family yesterday because of my birthday. I have a bunch of notes from yesterday morning here. I thought I recognized your name from somewhere when I woke up. But it seems you may be just someone I recognized from hanging around Sword of Moonlight. Anyway. I am pretty sure I remember someone using Arbalest to play Megami Tensei IMAGINE on the Japanese servers when it was new. I just made a note to ask if you were the same person? (Arbalest may be a common name from somewhere for all I know)

I also have a note to repurpose the SOM.exe file in the TOOL folder. It's supposed to be a specialized Subversion client at some point, possibly the installer, but the reason it existed before was just to update Somversion.dll since it couldn't update itself. But since a little while back that's no longer necessary. So now is a perfect time to make it open the updater manually with the File->Open function enabled (why it's obsolete has to do with Linux/POSIX not having a "delayed loading" feature. Once I realized that I had to implement a portable solution from scratch, which worked out even better than the native Windows solution.)

I think SOM.exe could be the best candidate for setting up language packs too. SOM_EX.exe seems like the obvious choice, but it actually launches SOM_MAIN by default, so better to have something that runs before SOM_MAIN do the deed.

I would go ahead and make it a simple SVN client but I have to do more research to figure out if SVN clients are able to manage a Checkout without getting in each others' way or not. And if not how to avoid doing so.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #13 on:** April 01, 2014, 11:57:19 PM »

For the record I just replaced http://csv.swordofmoonlight.net/Somversion.dll/1.0.1.6.zip with a new build accompanying a quick patch.

It should have been 1.0.1.5.zip (odds are demos) but I didn't realize there was going to be more work since it hadn't occurred to me to update SOM.exe.

Arbalest · « **Reply #14 on:** April 02, 2014, 01:23:13 PM »

SMT Imagine? I recognize that there was a US release but I don't play either JP or US versions...

So far I have not found anything too outlandish for the platform yet with that free time I had. With that note, I will get the updated tools, regardless.

simple machines forum

News:

Sword of Moonlight|

Archive (pre 2023)|

Beginner and other Nonsense|

Getting started: 2014

Author Topic: Getting started: 2014 (Read 25339 times)

Arbalest

Arbalest says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Arbalest

Arbalest says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Arbalest

Arbalest says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Arbalest

Arbalest says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Arbalest

Arbalest says,

simple machines forum

News:

Sword of Moonlight| Archive (pre 2023)| Beginner and other Nonsense| Getting started: 2014

Author Topic: Getting started: 2014 (Read 25339 times)

Sword of Moonlight|

Archive (pre 2023)|

Beginner and other Nonsense|

Getting started: 2014