Topic: Regarding Posting Sensibilities (Read 21406 times)

Wolf · « **on:** February 08, 2013, 08:32:21 PM »

This is my last attempt to get you to understand how simple the "common forum etiquette" I'm asking for is and to stop responding so severely.

Apparently the snippet you took issue with is:
"But what you call "moral" is irrelevant; I will be deleting/moving any of your posts that are excessively off topic or rude to other members, unless Todd asks me to do otherwise. My purpose is not to limit you, just to keep topics functionally focused and the environment pleasant."

The point is not that morals are irrelevant, but that you ALWAYS claim your actions are justified by some moral. In the MANY conversations I've had with you, you have never admitted any of your actions were wrong no matter how obvious it was. You were claiming that you had a moral obligation to argue off-topic in someone else's thread. I evaluated your claim, decided it was wrong, and therefore your ERRONEOUS "moral" was irrelevant. I can't be expected to take the time to convince you (who never admit you are wrong) that you are incorrect before taking action.

You said:
"But I just know that I am doing myself, SOM, and everyone who cares about SOM, a disservice to spend time with this forum. Anyway I retired my account and deleted my feeds/bookmarks last night. I just can't have any involvement with an angry site so entwined with something so close to me as Sword of Moonlight."

Seriously!? I ask you not to be rude on the forum and you think that means the forum is so "angry" that you have to disassociate from it? I am one of the most compassionate, moralistic people I know (hence why I am spending my time writing this message) and I have zero desire to be hostile or allow anyone else to be hostile on the forums. Your logic and conclusion here is just plain wrong.

For the fourth time, what I'm expecting is simple:
Don't post EXCESSIVE amounts of off-topic text in a thread.
Don't be rude to others.
If you think these requirements make a site "hostile", you are wrong. I'll ask you directly, come back the SoM.com forums and enjoy sharing your enthusiasm for SoM with others. That is the purpose of a forum and the very reason I think the above two rules are required.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2013, 11:20:04 PM »

First of all this seems like PM material. But I don't have any problem responding to this out in the open if that is what you prefer.

Quote from: Wolf on February 08, 2013, 08:32:21 PM

This is my last attempt to get you to understand how simple the "common forum etiquette" I'm asking for is and to stop responding so severely.

Problem with common anything is there is no clearly defined standard and if there was it would be a lot of work to commit such a thing to memory. You have to be compassionate even when conveying simple clearly defined objective rules. Edited: similarly what seems severe to you is fairly reasonable and straightforward to me. Recall I was banned for what was probably years. Never mind that disengaging is usually the appropriate thing to do when you find yourself in an asymmetrical relationship.

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Apparently the snippet you took issue with is:
"But what you call "moral" is irrelevant; I will be deleting/moving any of your posts that are excessively off topic or rude to other members, unless Todd asks me to do otherwise. My purpose is not to limit you, just to keep topics functionally focused and the environment pleasant."

I think I probably took issue with more than that. But the audacity of that statement sure didn't quite sink in until the second time it came to my attention. So yeah I singled it out as exemplar.

My problem isn't the sentiment and in lieu of my history with the forum in question I would not be so taken back by this. My problem is the hostile tone and the mere suggestion that I should be second guessing myself. If you are going to second guess yourself you might as well third guess yourself, fourth guess yourself, ad infinitum. That's placing a heavy burden on anyone. Lastly I take issue with the hypocrisy. You are going to delete/move a post that was a reply in kind to your own post. And I will admit that I doubt its sincerity.

By the good nature logic of this forum where I can hold sway your personal post would've been redacted, and users would be reminded to ignore personalized posts. Because this is a forum about Sword of Moonlight. Not interpersonal animus or rapport.

But that is not the history or practice of the som.com forums. So I replied to your singling me out because it would be rude not to.

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The point is not that morals are irrelevant, but that you ALWAYS claim your actions are justified by some moral.

You are specifically referring to my statement that I was only posting in the som.com forums when it was a "moral imperative". Whatever my morals may be is completely irrelevant. Moral imperative is a a phrase that just means I am morally compelled to do something. Like helping a little old lady across the street. Doesn't matter what the morals involved are, only how I would feel about myself if I did not follow through with my own personal convictions.

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In the MANY conversations I've had with you, you have never admitted any of your actions were wrong no matter how obvious it was.

That is probably because it isn't obvious to me. I always do the right thing. I'm a calm and collected 21st century bleeding heart liberal and every day the laws of this land are being revised to better approximate my private worldview. I think I am on the right side of history and it could not be more obvious.

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You were claiming that you had a moral obligation to argue off-topic in someone else's thread. I evaluated your claim, decided it was wrong, and therefore your ERRONEOUS "moral" was irrelevant.

I only claimed that I had a moral obligation to say hello to this chap. And to make sure that he understood that he was making things hard on himself by not looking into extending SOM ASAP.

The problem with making assumptions is you go out and make trouble for people based on misunderstandings.

The only offtopic post was yours. You brought up that you thought that there was a bug in Ex. And then you got very bossy (via PM) just because your claim was refuted in kind.

Because you personalized that assertion it would not have flied in this forum and any trouble that could have arisen from it would have stopped then and there. If you don't allow personal posts you can't have personal arguments period. If people need to vent all they can do is be passive aggressive.

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I can't be expected to take the time to convince you (who never admit you are wrong) that you are incorrect before taking action.

That's beside the point. I don't post in forums for my health. Just the idea that I would have my posts moderated period is enough to turn me away. And I am not going to say you can't do that.

Forums are messy business. You can't sanitize them. If you want something ordered you have to setup a blog or something. If someone butts in with a truly random tangent. I've seen it happen. It's good to fork it as soon as possible. Otherwise if there is a thread connecting some point however bare you just have to let it run its course.

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You said:
"But I just know that I am doing myself, SOM, and everyone who cares about SOM, a disservice to spend time with this forum. Anyway I retired my account and deleted my feeds/bookmarks last night. I just can't have any involvement with an angry site so entwined with something so close to me as Sword of Moonlight."

Seriously!? I ask you not to be rude on the forum and you think that means the forum is so "angry" that you have to disassociate from it? I am one of the most compassionate, moralistic people I know (hence why I am spending my time writing this message) and I have zero desire to be hostile or allow anyone else to be hostile on the forums. Your logic and conclusion here is just plain wrong.

Yeah like I said we don't see eye to eye. I can only interpret your actions as hostile. Both when you denigrated Ex on the most tenuous of grounds despite the absolute absurdity of what Ex achieves on behalf of SOM without which SOM may as well not even exist for all of its complications and inadequacies.

And then you turn around and bust my ass like a cop with a hard on because I replied as briefly as possible to something you posted that you knew well and good could not be left alone anymore than if you had insulted my mother. Regardless of your intentions your response demonstrated a certain lack of sensitivity which I am just not prepared to submit to or adapt to.

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For the fourth time, what I'm expecting is simple:
Don't post EXCESSIVE amounts of off-topic text in a thread.
Don't be rude to others.
If you think these requirements make a site "hostile", you are wrong. I'll ask you directly, come back the SoM.com forums and enjoy sharing your enthusiasm for SoM with others. That is the purpose of a forum and the very reason I think the above two rules are required.

I don't feel like I am missing out on anything. I don't feel comfortable or welcome, and even if you are just covering your ass here, which is well commendable, the fact remains that it just won't work out. I am more comfortable here where I can ensure any discussion of SOM does not degenerate into abuse / domination of anyone much less myself.

Don't get the wrong idea. I understand very well in the real world flare ups, outbursts, open hostility, psycho drama, are always palpable and beneath the surface. But I don't think that is constructive, or the direction western civilization is heading. And I would prefer to model appropriate behavior as long as I have anything to do with it.

I will get down in the dirt in any given online forum just because, there's that word again, I have a moral imperative to model good behavior. But this isn't any given online forum. It's a Sword of Moonlight forum. And by god I won't stand for anyone disgracing Sword of Moonlight. It's not just a fan thing. I've devoted and invested a good deal of my life to it and may well identify myself personally with it for all I know...

So that's why I have a very difficult time taking part in any discussion of SOM that is irreverent (to my mind) and would just assume not know that such forums even exist though I am glad that they do.

If anything I have a "moral imperative" to try to participate. I tried. And frankly I am relieved to have found an out. You shouldn't take it personally. But that's not to say that I would not have handled things very differently were I in your shoes. Besides the fact that there would have been no problem at all to begin with

(were I)

PS: There is a new thread around here that explains how to make 75% smaller BGM files if you want to make sure everyone knows they can do that. SOM downloads are too huge as it is and BGMs make up a lot of the bulk.

dmpdesign · « **Reply #2 on:** February 14, 2013, 02:23:49 AM »

What on earth?

Did you really delete your stuff on som.com?

I don't want to get involved in personal business that doesn't really concern me, but if I may give my 2 pennies worth, Id like you to reactivate your account and continue to post about your work with SomEx etc.

If SomEx is as important to the future of SoM based games as you think it is/will be, then the folks that visit there (such as the new guy's thread where this all started) should be given the chance to find out all they can about it.

Let's be honest Holy, there are very very few people who find SoM, fewer still who bother to log into either of the forums, and even less that stick with it. If you are going to continue to work on SomEx, don't you want as much exposure as you can get for it? Why have your work be for naught? I am not trying to be mean, but I would wager a larger % of the small number of people that find SoM at all find it via som.com, it would be sad if they can't continue to get updates and feedback about your work from that portal.

I am well aware that my words probably mean very little to you as I have burned my bridges with your good favor a long time ago, but I assure you I am not the same guy I was then, I wish you did not feel unwelcome, especially if its from me. I want everyone on the forum(s) doing their best to make SoM games for the community, and that most certainly includes you and your work.

Can we sort this out and agree amongst ourselves to try to keep things civil, unpersonal and professional? There have been mistakes made, apologies made and so on, lets just move forward and try not to repeat them?

Holey Moley · « **Reply #3 on:** February 14, 2013, 05:34:04 AM »

Thanks dmpdesign. I will read this post again later.

But as for you question. No I just changed my status to ACCOUNT RETIRED. I did delete my browser bookmarks and stuff so I can't compulsively check the forum. And I won't be reading it. Mainly so I am not compelled to post. But also because I have bigger fish to fry.

And like I say I don't like to see SOM disgraced by the petty things people do when unchecked.

PS: For the record I don't believe people should be allowed to delete forum accounts. It's one of the first things I turn off. But I did tell Wolf he could delete my account, but I warned him I wasn't sure what that would do to my posts.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #4 on:** February 14, 2013, 09:03:58 AM »

Quote from: dmpdesign on February 14, 2013, 02:23:49 AM

What on earth?

Yeah you're telling me.

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Did you really delete your stuff on som.com?

Again no. It's still all there isn't it? Wolf tells me he did delete a few posts under the guise of moderation. He may have deleted more since then. Possibly everything if he can do that.

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Let's be honest Holy, there are very very few people who find SoM, fewer still who bother to log into either of the forums, and even less that stick with it. If you are going to continue to work on SomEx, don't you want as much exposure as you can get for it? Why have your work be for naught? I am not trying to be mean, but I would wager a larger % of the small number of people that find SoM at all find it via som.com, it would be sad if they can't continue to get updates and feedback about your work from that portal.

Well if you care anything for SOM you will do that yourself. I'm not a coach and a salesman too. I pull enough weight for SOM already.

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I am well aware that my words probably mean very little to you as I have burned my bridges with your good favor a long time ago, but I assure you I am not the same guy I was then, I wish you did not feel unwelcome, especially if its from me. I want everyone on the forum(s) doing their best to make SoM games for the community, and that most certainly includes you and your work.

I take your words at face value. To be honest my decision to jump ship was brought on by Wolf's som.com moderation. But I was only participating in the first place to reward you for demonstrating some decency and humility.

Wolf has been posting mean little balls of hate around here lately. This thread in point. You know to each his own. Som.com is too Mad Max for my temperament. Especially when SOM is involved.

And frankly som.com posters seem to be more wanting of attention than Sword of Moonlight progress... or any activity whatsoever. People go online to get attention. It's good they have somewhere to go do that.

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Can we sort this out and agree amongst ourselves to try to keep things civil, unpersonal and professional? There have been mistakes made, apologies made and so on, lets just move forward and try not to repeat them?

We can do all of that here. If you don't go personal (not allowed here) you can't go uncivil, check check. As for professional I am not sure what that means with respect to online discussion.

If you want me to see something somewhere send a link my way

If I have incompetent users in here I will send them your way

Wolf · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2013, 07:33:44 PM »

Quote from: Holy Diver on February 14, 2013, 09:03:58 AM

Wolf tells me he did delete a few posts under the guise of moderation. He may have deleted more since then. Possibly everything if he can do that. .. Som.com is too Mad Max for my temperament.

I deleted 2 1/2 pots by you after you refused to voluntarily move them to a more pertinent thread and instead posted another one that was off-topic. I have no intention of sadistically deleting anything else. What part of "I am one of the most compassionate, moralistic people I know" do you not get?

Shall we shine some light into the darkness? In the brief stint when I was actively posting here, you moved my topics, renamed my topics, deleted text from my posts, deleted my attachments, added your own attachments to my posts, and added text to my posts. Then when I told you in an email that I had a religious conviction against calling a person "Holy", you added a policy to this site designed specifically to forbid me from NOT calling you Holy. Then I ask you to adhere to common forum etiquette on Som.com: "don't be excessively off topic, and don't be rude" and it's too Mad Max for you!!?? You are the worst kind of a hypocrite.

Quote from: Holy Diver on February 14, 2013, 09:03:58 AM

Wolf has been posting mean little balls of hate around here lately. This thread in point.

To describe my two posts here as "hate bombs" shows just how backwards your brain is. "Please come back and share friendship" + your brain = hate bomb? I've known you longer than anyone else involved with SoM - if you think they're hate bombs because I don't get involved in a line by line debate with you, it's not about "hate". It's simply because I know that is a futile endeavor; your mind is made up regardless of any facts. You like to think of yourself as philosophically guided by morals and logic, but you are actually just self absorbed and cruel. Your decency only lasts until people stop serving your ego; then the real you comes out:

Quote from: Holy Diver on February 14, 2013, 09:03:58 AM

If I have incompetent users in here I will send them your way

Holey Moley · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2013, 01:27:34 AM »

Quote from: Wolf on February 17, 2013, 07:33:44 PM

Quote from: Holy Diver on February 14, 2013, 09:03:58 AM
Wolf tells me he did delete a few posts under the guise of moderation. He may have deleted more since then. Possibly everything if he can do that. .. Som.com is too Mad Max for my temperament.
I deleted 2 1/2 pots by you after you refused to voluntarily move them to a more pertinent thread and instead posted another one that was off-topic.

Well you destroyed the evidence too. But my posts were not longer than the TC's posts and I assure you they were pertinent. Like I said anything goes in a forum. That's why they are separate from any site anywhere you go.

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I have no intention of sadistically deleting anything else. What part of "I am one of the most compassionate, moralistic people I know" do you not get?

Well you said yourself "sadistically" so I have to assume your compassion and morality looks something like a BDSM club. Which is fine. But you can understand how people can disagree I hope.

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Shall we shine some light into the darkness? In the brief stint when I was actively posting here, you moved my topics, renamed my topics, deleted text from my posts, deleted my attachments, added your own attachments to my posts, and
added text to my posts.

I did not delete any text. Any attachments deleted would have been old versions of files. But it's unlikely anything was deleted if it was something you originated yourself. And I did not do anything for moderation purposes. If I put notes in your posts they were attributed and for readers and you could have removed the text if you thought it was unhelpful. We have clear policies here but they are not policies that infringe on people in any personal ways.

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Then when I told you in an email that I had a religious conviction against calling a person "Holy", you added a policy to this site designed specifically to forbid me from NOT calling you Holy.

That seems mighty egocentric to me. The policy is to call people by their screen names so that everyone knows who you are talking to and you are not going against the privacy policy that protects users' anonymity. It's also there so we don't use our christian names because you know, my name is the most common male name in the US and things get confusing very fast when everyone has the same name. It doesn't scale. I want the forum to be a welcoming place. And by that I don't mean a bed of chaos.

EDITED: Holy is a video game "affinity" and Holy Diver is a screen name. It isn't a magic word. You can spell it all of the way out. I'm not a cult leader. You're not calling me Holy. Relax. This is why personal discussion shouldn't even be happening. It always makes one side or the other look bad or off even when you do your best not to.

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Then I ask you to adhere to common forum etiquette on Som.com: "don't be excessively off topic, and don't be rude" and it's too Mad Max for you!!?? You are the worst kind of a hypocrite.

The forum is way way way too Mad Max for me. You are aware of its history probably better than I am. As for why you think "don't be excessively off topic, and don't be rude" is what I meant when I said that. God only knows. But I do disagree wholeheartedly with that sentiment. You might as well be communist China when you make a decree like that.

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Quote from: Holy Diver on February 14, 2013, 09:03:58 AM
Wolf has been posting mean little balls of hate around here lately. This thread in point.

Mean little balls of hate is an expression. Plus I've been playing Psychonauts. But your posts are combative. And that is not welcome here period. I only make an exception for you because you've done a lot and were not for you. SOM is my sun now. But I wasn't going to go to the lengths you did to get my hands on a copy. I wish you would share your work with SOM in a transparent way so that it can be beneficial to everyone. But I don't chew you out or discredit you for it.

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To describe my two posts here as "hate bombs" shows just how backwards your brain is. "Please come back and share friendship" + your brain = hate bomb? I've known you longer than anyone else involved with SoM - if you think they're hate bombs because I don't get involved in a line by line debate with you, it's not about "hate". It's simply because I know that is a futile endeavor; your mind is made up regardless of any facts. You like to think of yourself as philosophically guided by morals and logic, but you are actually just self absorbed and cruel. Your decency only lasts until people stop serving your ego; then the real you comes out:

No we just have very different ideas of what is decent. My ideas of decency are reflected in the modern laws of the western world. Your ideas are probably more instinctual and traditional. Tribal. You know that hole we've been digging ourselves out of for millennia.

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Quote from: Holy Diver on February 14, 2013, 09:03:58 AM
If I have incompetent users in here I will send them your way

This is always the real me. This forum limits my behavior just as much as it does everyone else's.

You can say anything you want about anything in this forum as long as you don't use censored words (from tv/radio/by the respect project titles and privacy policies) and you don't aim it at a participant in this forum. That's a personal offense and it's not allowed. And not necessarily because it is wrong, but because it's a pattern of behavior that leads to like behavior that can easily bring a forum to its knees / reduce it to a Mad Max hellscape over night.

That's what social forums are for. This isn't a social forum period full-stop. It's a Sword of Moonlight forum. And not a social one. And there never will be a social forum associated with this site. You can always use the GameFaqs SOM forum if there is nowhere else that is left to go.

That said I generally respect people's space. If you don't give me grief you won't get any from me (in other words I don't get offended by my own shadow)

Holey Moley · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2013, 02:28:59 AM »

Quote from: Public Discussion forum description

G-rated, safe for work/radio discussion. Keep it impersonal. Opinions are not subject to debate or persuasion.

Just saying. Sums it up pretty well.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2013, 11:21:30 AM »

PS: Just to be clear. I said you can say anything you want about anything [yada yada yada] in here, but if what you are saying is not 95% related to Sword of Moonlight then... well I guess there will just have to be a new policy

SaneGino · « **Reply #9 on:** February 19, 2013, 05:45:22 AM »

Jeebus guise, so hostile.

This whole thread is an absolute waste of space, just as argument is a waste of breath.

Breathe in, breathe out.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #10 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:03:09 AM »

Quote from: SaneGino on February 19, 2013, 05:45:22 AM

Jeebus guise, so hostile.

This whole thread is an absolute waste of space, just as argument is a waste of breath.

Breathe in, breathe out.

Well I am glad we agree. But we have to make exceptions for Wolf. Without his work and generosity its even odds no one outside of Japan would have a copy of Sword of Moonlight right now. Due to the way it was released in Japan it was just too much for mere mortals to cut through to score a copy. And that's not even the half of it.

Wolf · « **Reply #11 on:** February 19, 2013, 08:43:47 PM »

I mostly agree SaneGino. When a discussion becomes hostile (aka an argument) it usually becomes destructive to continue. I have no interest in arguing or defaming anyone. My purpose here was to set the public record straight. I've spent a lifetime trying to "stand up for" and endorse decent and honorable behavior. I make mistakes regularly, but I spend a lot of energy trying to get it right. When someone is spreading exaggerated accounts of my behavior and suggesting that I'm fake and mean spirited, I feel compelled to tell my side of the story because I don't want it to seem like I'm endorsing evil behavior in any form.

SaneGino · « **Reply #12 on:** February 20, 2013, 12:27:39 AM »

Well, as long as everyone is happy, I am too.

Holey Moley · « **Reply #13 on:** February 20, 2013, 05:02:13 AM »

Quote from: Wolf on February 19, 2013, 08:43:47 PM

I mostly agree SaneGino. When a discussion becomes hostile (aka an argument) it usually becomes destructive to continue. I have no interest in arguing or defaming anyone. My purpose here was to set the public record straight. I've spent a lifetime trying to "stand up for" and endorse decent and honorable behavior. I make mistakes regularly, but I spend a lot of energy trying to get it right. When someone is spreading exaggerated accounts of my behavior and suggesting that I'm fake and mean spirited, I feel compelled to tell my side of the story because I don't want it to seem like I'm endorsing evil behavior in any form.

If I suggested you were mean spirited it is based on the content of this thread alone. To me hostility in this context is mean spirited behavior.

As for fake or evil as you say. I don't know what that means. You are human though lest you ever forget

Wolf · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2013, 09:21:55 PM »

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Q: Why does Holy Diver not interact with swordofmoonlight.com?
A: Because I have been banned on numerous occasions for pathetically petty reasons, and currently am not even able to send or receive Private Messages. The membership is for the most part not helpful or interested in Sword of Moonlight regardless. Go firgure.

You are a liar. You have narcissism. One of the symptoms of narcissism is "needing to vilify anyone who disagrees with you". And the lies/half-truths you use to make your point are the classic tools narcissists use.

The "numerous occasions" = two temporary bans over many years. The "petty reasons" = repeated derogatory remarks against other members or their work, repeated argumentative and contradictory posts, all while ignoring multiple warnings to stop.

I'm tempted to go back and pull out all the rude and cruel things you've posted about people through the years, but in traditional narcissist style, you are mostly immune to reality so what is the point?

You were banned from "sending or receiving Private Messages" because after the initial 30 day ban from posting (could still log in send messages etc), you saw the need to derisively change your custom title (which shows on all your posts) to all capitals "ACCOUNT DELETED" (even though it wasn't deleted at all). This abuse of the custom-title system to bypass the posting ban and get one last catty message displayed on your posts is just an extension of why you were banned in the first place. You have an overwhelming drive to demean others in order to prove your own martyrdom and superiority.

Even though I think it's disgusting that you put something so misleading and childish in your FAQ, I'm not posting this to "get even". I actually hope something I say might stick in your brain and start your mind working down a different path. You're still a relatively young man, but I've known a couple older narcissists- their lives don't go well. They ended up alone in a fictional reality and bitter at everyone around them as being "unworthy" of their company.

I think narcissism is largely triggered by environment during upbringing- legalistic, emotionally unavailable fathers and excessively pampering, enabling mothers. But like most "baggage" from childhood, it can be outgrown. The problem is, narcissist have trouble understanding that there's a problem in the first place. I can say with fair confidence, that the people on som.com are some of the best you are likely to ever meet. If all you can do is regard such people as useless and ignorant, then you're not likely to ever find anyone who meets your standards.

Try exercising your "goodness" muscles. Every day, do some random charitable act that returns absolutely no benefit to yourself. And no, you don't already do that.

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Regarding Posting Sensibilities

Author Topic: Regarding Posting Sensibilities (Read 21406 times)

Wolf

Wolf says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

dmpdesign

dmpdesign says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Wolf

Wolf says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

SaneGino

SaneGino says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Wolf

Wolf says,

SaneGino

SaneGino says,

Holey Moley

Holey Moley says,

Wolf

Wolf says,

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Sword of Moonlight| Archive (pre 2023)| Beginner and other Nonsense| Regarding Posting Sensibilities

Author Topic: Regarding Posting Sensibilities (Read 21406 times)

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Regarding Posting Sensibilities